The NCLR is by all definition a racially driven advocacy organization that promotes the well being of one particular ethnic group. It can be considered the flip side of groups like the Minutemen and NumbersUSA. Only difference is that the latter two organizations are considered racist, whereas the NCLR is not. Any organization dedicated to the goals of a certain ethic group is racist. A NCWP would never be allowed under the double standards that exist in this country. True, racial hate groups can be found within all ethnic groups, but it is only when these groups represent the goals of white people that they are considered racist. Very much double standards to many people.

As for drivers licenses for non-citizens, it should be a no brainer. If a person is in this country illegally he should not be given the same rights as citizens. There are a disproportionate number of auto accidents each year caused by illegal aliens that kill American citizens. Besides, giving licenses to illegal aliens would open the door to illegal voting and that is the only reason many advocate such a sinister idea.

I encounter people of different ethnic groups on a daily basis and have never had a first thought that they are possibly in this country illegally. American citizens are of all ethnic groups with all equal rights under the law, but those that are here illegally should not expect to have the same equal rights as a citizen. That includes a drivers license.

Gee, how dumb this article makes the racist on this forum look!

According to them they see no evil, speak no evil, and hear no evil. O yeah, an quit callin the minutemen vigilantes an sayen they shoot people.

They dont never shoot people they only help the border patrol catch ileeeeegal aliens.

As I went through all the threads today, I finally saw what I have been missing all along.

No wonder everyone ignores all the racist on this forum. The level of intelligence they expose by what they think they know should be against the law.

It's like trying to carry on an adult conversation with a 6 year old. You cant!

Is it possible for people to be soooo dumb. I didn't think so, but I guess I was wrong. I think I will call it quits and ignore them too!

Thank you for this important contribution. Two Jewish organizations have also called on the media to stop promoting racist hate, most recently the Anti-Defamation League. These organizations recognize the stark parallels between today's anti-immigrant racist propaganda and violence in the US, and the Nazi's anti-Semitic racist propaganda and violence in 1930s Germany. For this reason, and out of simple decency, they also are calling for a halt to the anti-immigrant rhetoric.

I should add that anti-immigrant, "anti-illegal" and anti-Latino rhetoric and violence are one and the same.

Just to point out the parallels between our situation today in the US and the Nazis in Germany:

1.Many people suffering economic insecurity: in Germany due to the Great Depression, here due to Bush-era (and Clinton-era) taking of money and resources from the middle class and poor and giving to the very rich.

2.Rich people bankrolling propaganda to redirect people's anger away from them and their policies, onto minorities: in Germany, industrialists like Krupp and Flick bankrolling Nazi newspapers like Julius Streicher's "Der Stuermer," to blame the Jews for all of Germany's troubles. Here owners of the corporate media like CNN, Fox, and Clearchannel Radio paying directly the salaries of racist propagandists like Lou Dobbs and radio talk hosts to blame "illegals" for Americans' troubles.

3.State-promoted violence to strike fear into people belonging to the targeted minority. In Germany, violent raids on Jews' homes and businesses by heavily armed uniformed police (SA and SS), here today violent raids on immigrants' homes and workplaces by heavily armed uniformed police (ICE).

4. Members of the targeted minority suddenly disappearing from their community: in Germany, Jews being grabbed wherever they were, jailed, brought into detention centers, and deported to concentration camps; here today undocumented immigrants being grabbed wherever they are, jailed, brought to detention centers and deported to distant countries they may not even remember

5. Disregard for the actual life and survival of the detained minority people: in Germany, Jews were beaten to death during detention. Here today, thousands of immigrants have died during detention: we don't know of what.
One difference in this point is that Jews in Germany, as we know, were actually systematically killed by the millions in detention. This is not being done to immigrants here today. Seriously, this seems to me to be the major difference between the two historical moments. Otherwise, most points are frighteningly similar.

6.Violent acts of the civilian population against members of the targeted minority. These were in fact quite rare in Germany itself against the Jews, and were seen more in associated countries like Austria after the "Anschluss" in 1938. Violent crimes of civilian Americans against Latinos are actually becoming more common now in the US, as our Guest Voz states.

7. Violence both by the state and by civilians against the targeted minority intimidated everyone: if armed police could drag Jews out of their homes at 4 in the morning, as a German it was best to also keep silent because they might do it to you. This effect will become more prominent in the US over time if the corporation-state-racist individuals coalition to target immigrants continue on their present trajectory. The laws to suspend civil and human rights of Americans are already on the books, passed in the last few years at the Bush administration's behest.

8.Racist scapegoating being successful because of a latent undercurrent of racism in the society. Anti-Semitism and racism had been fostered in Germany since the Kaiserreich was founded in 1871. We know the history of racism here in the US - it may no longer be publicly acceptable to label an African-American with epithets, so instead this sentiment is vented in the epithets directed at "illegals."

9.Lastly: the ills attributed to the targeted minority had and have no basis in actual reality whatsoever. This was true of the Jews in Germany, who were said to be criminals, exploit Germans, and suck the vitality out of the country. It is true of the US today, where numerous studies have debunked the myths that attribute everything from crime to unemployment to "illegals".

I think La Raza's campaign is very important, because the racist falsehoods spread by Lou Dobbs, the violence committed by ICE in raids on homes and workplaces, and the hate crimes perpetrated against Latinos all enable each other. They are all part of the same coalition to deflect blame for the country's bad situation onto a defenseless minority.

And as an aside: this effort was not good for 1930s Germany, and for non-Jewish Germans. It is not good for non-Latino Americans today. Many feel this intuitively - which is why Tom Tancredo failed first. But until they can be stopped, these racists will do much much harm to many innocent people: American citizens and non-citizens alike.

Hate? This turns logic and justice on their heads. Honest citizens wish to have their consitutionally valid laws on immigration enforced and the advocates for the transgressors are accusing them of hate and racism! It's La Raza that advocates rewarding illegal aliens with the privilege of driving, a blatant aiding an abetting of illegal immigration. Giving licenses to illegal aliens is an irrational act only advocated by the friends and family of persons who unlawfully work here. Maybe we should act favorably on the demands of the families of ordinary criminals as well for leniency so that they may not be inconvenienced by their absence. Giving licenses is an act that only encourages the homesteading of the very people that we, through our laws wish to evict. Its agents of Mexico like La Raza that are fomenting hate by offending the sensibilities of every honest citizen in this country. Ordinary citiizens see right through the agenda of La Raza by now. The citizens of this country do hate, but not the illegal aliens, only La Raza and its ilk, agencies which wish to tear down our legal system and destroy our country in process, all to sacrifice for illegal aliens who refuse to obey our laws. Our citzens are coming to know Mexican interference in what are our internal polticial matters. Ordinary citizens have a growing hate of that. If Hispanics think that such tactics work to their advantage, they should think again, as state after state has ignorned them and will continue to do so.

This is utter BS! There is no racial hate directed towards Latinos legal or illegal in this country by the majority of Americans. The terms or words suggested to be "hate speech" are ridiculous.

Americans are just frustrated with all the parties that have played a role in this illegal immigration mess we are in today. That is our government, the employers and the illegal themselves. That doesn't equate to "hate". Latino citizens who respect our laws and are not ethnocentrics are respected by their fellow citizens.

I have heard way more "hate speech" directed at those of us who don't advocate illegal immigration and want our laws enforced and our borders secured than the other way around.

Let me see if I have this right:

What you want to do is censor free speech on the public airwaves. Is that right? The mind reels when considering the steps you are willing to take in behalf of people who are, in fact, illegal aliens.

No Drivers License for Illegal/Undocumented/Dishonest/Illicit/Illegitimate/Banned/Prohibited/Unlawful Aliens/Strangers/Foreigners/Immigrants, simply because none of them have taken a drivers ed course here in the USA. They use fake/phony/stolen documentation to by pass this very important part, DRIVERS ED. Most have never been behind the wheel of a car in their lives. When and if caught driving, they issue a false name with no license so not to be found later.

By coming from other countries, most people that know how to drive already have a drivers licenses from their home country, some my even have an International Drivers License. With these licenses they can legally drive here for the duration of their time or until their license expires. So then what would be the need for a State Drivers License here in the USA? After having allowed this for so long, and all the lying by the Illegal/Undocumented/Dishonest/Illicit/Illegitimate/Banned/Prohibited/Unlawful Aliens/Strangers/Foreigners/Immigrants using false names/documents how can they be remotely trusted?

There is no discrimination or hate against anybody, as driving and having a drivers license is a privilege and not a right. If all they want is a form of ID they can have an ID issued to them through their consulate.

Hate Groups Hijack Immigration Debate
New American Media, Commentary, Mark Potok Dec.13, 2007

When it comes to debating immigration, the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR) has a knack for finding a place at the table to pitch it's position.

In the past six years, FAIR officials have testified at least 30 times before Congress, and they have been quoted by the mainstream media more than 500 times so far in 2007. Earlier this year, the group played a key roll in defeating bipartisan immigration reform legislation in Congress. In short FAIR is taken seriously as a legitimate commentator.

It shouldn't be.

Despite it's frequent turns in the media spotlight, FAIR has a 20 year track record of bigotry and extremism that has led the Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC) to classify the organization as a HATE GROUP. The latest issue of SPLC's quarterly Intelligence Report delves into FAIR's history of bigotry and white supremacy. These are some of the findings:

FAIR was founded in 1979 by John Tanton, who has compared immigrants to 'bacteria' and warned that high birthrates will allow Latinos to take over America. Still a member of FAIR's board, Tanton also operates the Social Contract Press, listed as a hate group for many years by the SPLC because of its white supremacist writings.

FAIR has accepted more than $1 million from the Pioneer Fund, a racist foundation devoted to eugenics and to proving a connection between race and IQ. While others have returned the fund's money after learning of their background, FAIR President Dan Stein had no qualms about taking it, telling a reporter in 1993, "My job is to get every dime of Pioneer's money.

Key staff members of FAIR have ties to white supremacist groups. For example, Joseph Turner, who was hired by FAIR in late 2006 as its western field representative, led a nativist hate group called 'Save our State' Turner also defended white separatism on Save our State's electronic bulletin board.

FAIR has successfully spread racist conspiracy theories, including the bogus claim that Mexico has set its sights on "reconquering" the southwest and the notion of a secret plot to merge the U.S. Mexico and Canada.

While much of this information has been available for years, it has not affected FAIR's standing in the media. However, FAIR left little doubt about the way it does business this past February when a top official met with the leaders of Vlaams Belang, a Belgian political party that under its previous name, Vlaams Blok, was officially banned by the Belgian Supreme Court as a racist and xenophobic group. The meeting was held to seek the Europeans' advice on immigration.

The listing of FAIR as a hate group is significant because FAIR is the hub of the American nativest movement. Its position on immigration is rooted more in its anti-Latino and anti-Catholic beliefs than in policy concerns.

Remarkably, Fair has infiltrated the mainstream and shaped the immigration debate in this country.

This group more than any other, has contributed to the rancid turn the national immigration discussion has taken. With FAIR fanning the flames of xenophobic intolerance, hate groups and hate crimes directed at Latinos continue to rise in America.

The SPLC has documented a 40% increase in the number of hate groups since 2000, an increase that SPLC analysts attribute to the anti-immigrant fervor that is sweeping the country. The FBI recently released statistics showing a 35% rise in hate crimes against Latinos since 2003.

This country deserves an open and honest immigration debate. However the debate has proven to be a fertile ground for hate groups looking to spread their racist beliefs under the guise of immigration reform, This is why it is crucial for the American to understand the background and motives of the groups shaping this debate, such as FAIR. The nation's immigration debate is simply too important to be POISONED by a bigoted group manipulating it for its own xenophobic reasons.

http://news.newamericamedia.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=c177f36e695d5564e

Quiero felicitarlos por este sitio es interesante leer todos los comentarios acerca de la gente indocumentada buenos y malos (comentarios) solo hay algo que quisiera preguntarle a las personas que no quieren alos indocomentados QUE HARIAN SI TODOS NOSOTROS NOS FUERAMOS DE ESTE PAIS? creen llenar los trabajos que quedaran vacios?

Interesting point, Jax. Though La Raza, the Anti-Defamation League, and many others are not calling for censorship, maybe they should. Maybe we should.

These organizations are calling for a stop of the huge corporate media's bankrolling of racist hate speech. Stop paying Lou Dobbs. Stop paying Bill O' Reilly. Stop paying the right-wing talk hosts.

These people in fact do not reflect the attitudes of the majority of Americans. However, commentators and analysts that do reflect American attitudes of decency, fairness, respect for families and for hard work, are not being paid by the corporate media to disseminate the truth about undocumented migrants.

The active promotion of anti-immigrant hate by corporate media is what La Raza and Jewish organizations, as well as denominational organizations, are highlighting and trying to push back.

In contrast, censorship is actually written into law in today's Germany, one of the stablest democracies on the planet today. It is against the law there to print or disseminate Nazi propaganda or use Nazi symbols. These laws exist because of Germans' firsthand experience with the disastrous and deadly consequences of racist speech.

Should we advocate a similar legal prohibition of racist hate speech here in the US? Personally I don't think so, because I share in the hope that better ideas tend to win. But Nazi Germany is a stark example of what happens when better ideas lose. And racist hate speech in Germany in the 1930s was bankrolled by heads of huge corporations, just like it is in the US today.

Laura said: "Just to point out the parallels between our situation today in the US and the Nazis in Germany:"

"1.Many people suffering economic insecurity: in Germany due to the Great Depression, here due to Bush-era (and Clinton-era) taking of money and resources from the middle class and poor and giving to the very rich."

Where is the parallel to Nazi Germany? I know of no case, despite the dreadfulness of the Nazi government treatment of its own Jews, that Hitler was stealing rom the middle class Germans and giving to the rich. Such a program doesn't exist in the history books.

"2.Rich people bankrolling propaganda to redirect people's anger away from them and their policies, onto minorities: in Germany, industrialists like Krupp and Flick bankrolling Nazi newspapers like Julius Streicher's "Der Stuermer," to blame the Jews for all of Germany's troubles. Here owners of the corporate media like CNN, Fox, and Clearchannel Radio paying directly the salaries of racist propagandists like Lou Dobbs and radio talk hosts to blame "illegals" for Americans' troubles."

The only problem with this parellel is that the people in question, the illegal immigrants are not citizens but actively breaking the laws of the land to enter our country. The Jews, gypsies and metally retarded were actually citizens of Germany who were persecuted. Our illegal aliens, are subject to deportation under due process of law as provided for by our Constitution. You're really spinning this one Laura, as there is no comparison to Nazi Germany here. The true racists are the ethnocentric Hispanics who wish to bull doze their way through our legal system and have us ignore our laws and the will of the citizens.

"3.State-promoted violence to strike fear into people belonging to the targeted minority. In Germany, violent raids on Jews' homes and businesses by heavily armed uniformed police (SA and SS), here today violent raids on immigrants' homes and workplaces by heavily armed uniformed police (ICE)."

This is really too much. ICE is merely arresting law breakers, mostly people guilty of identity theft, as well as raiding companies that have the employment of illegal aliens as their policy. They are armed in that way to protect themselves because they are often outnumbered by the large numbers of illegal aliens who could eventually fight back against their deportation. There is no guarrantee that a raid will not be met by armed resistance. I'm sorry, but I support these people in doing their sworn duty to enforce our laws. It should be noted that there is no evidence that any of the people who've been picked up in these raids has ever been hurt by these heavily armed men. You're just demonizing these law enforcement people to promote your own agenda."

"4. Members of the targeted minority suddenly disappearing from their community: in Germany, Jews being grabbed wherever they were, jailed, brought into detention centers, and deported to concentration camps; here today undocumented immigrants being grabbed wherever they are, jailed, brought to detention centers and deported to distant countries they may not even remember."

It's not our country's fault if these people choose to occupy our country so long that they lose touch with their countrymen or culture. This is a conscious thing on the part, because they knew very well that they could be deported. And it's a stretch to compare deportation centers to concentration camps where people are worked to death and burned in ovens. This is another way of demonizing our law enforcement personnel and procedures. Why aren't you discussing the Mexican government's horrible treatment and detention of their illegal aliens. You won't because it's not on your agenda.

"5. Disregard for the actual life and survival of the detained minority people: in Germany, Jews were beaten to death during detention. Here today, thousands of immigrants have died during detention: we don't know of what.
One difference in this point is that Jews in Germany, as we know, were actually systematically killed by the millions in detention. This is not being done to immigrants here today. Seriously, this seems to me to be the major difference between the two historical moments. Otherwise, most points are frighteningly similar."

Another propaganda lie by the illegal alien advocacy crowd. There is absolutely no evidence that "thousands" of illegal aliens have died in detention center. Here is a case of extreme exaggeration of a few cases at most, over a long time frame.

6.Violent acts of the civilian population against members of the targeted minority. These were in fact quite rare in Germany itself against the Jews, and were seen more in associated countries like Austria after the "Anschluss" in 1938. Violent crimes of civilian Americans against Latinos are actually becoming more common now in the US, as our Guest Voz states."

The laws are directed at all illegal aliens, not just Latinos. Please give us some numbers to back this up. Another outrageous claim with no truth to it.

"7. Violence both by the state and by civilians against the targeted minority intimidated everyone: if armed police could drag Jews out of their homes at 4 in the morning, as a German it was best to also keep silent because they might do it to you. This effect will become more prominent in the US over time if the corporation-state-racist individuals coalition to target immigrants continue on their present trajectory. The laws to suspend civil and human rights of Americans are already on the books, passed in the last few years at the Bush administration's behest."

More rediculous hyperbole unsupported by facts. The only people being arrested and targeted are illegal aliens and their aiders and abettors.

"8.Racist scapegoating being successful because of a latent undercurrent of racism in the society. Anti-Semitism and racism had been fostered in Germany since the Kaiserreich was founded in 1871. We know the history of racism here in the US - it may no longer be publicly acceptable to label an African-American with epithets, so instead this sentiment is vented in the epithets directed at "illegals.""

I'm sorry that that illegal aliens do not like being called illegal aliens, but that's no more unexpected than thieves being called thieves and rapists being called rapists. The are what they are and no spinning is going to make the public feel any better about the transgressions against their Constitutionally enacted laws. If they don't like it, then they can go home to their paradise in Mexico. Remember that horrible place that they escaped from. Obviously it is better to live in this terrible country than their homelands, yet they just keep coming for more. Wonderous, isn't it?

"9.Lastly: the ills attributed to the targeted minority had and have no basis in actual reality whatsoever. This was true of the Jews in Germany, who were said to be criminals, exploit Germans, and suck the vitality out of the country. It is true of the US today, where numerous studies have debunked the myths that attribute everything from crime to unemployment to "illegals"."

Crimes are being committed by illegal aliens every day. It's in the newspapers, on the web, jus open your eyes. Why should Americans accept this crime as just colllateral damage to the influx of innocent illegal immigrants. Tell the mothers of the dead that their children died for the convenience of the presence of foreigners who would never be here if our immigration laws had been enforced. While the crime rate of ordinary immigrants may be no higher than for ordinary citizens, that's not the point. There are thousands of citizens that would be alive today if there was no illegal immigration. That my friends is irrefutable.

The latinos are the most racist people in the country and will always be shut out by society because of it. These people never consider that there are other people in the world but them. Yes they can out breed Americans, but what have they done for this or any county for that matter, except look for free health care, welfare, education, etc. Most americans don't care about race, but it is the latinos that bring up race any time a law is broken by them. Enough is enough we are a county of laws ands the latinos bring up race most of the time when they break the law.

Wanting illegals to respect our immigration laws does not mean that we hate them. This country has a long and proud history of welcoming legal immigrants. It it not unreasonable to ask that our laws be rspected.

So according to the NCLR and their supporters calling illegals "illegal aliens" is hate speech? What about them calling Americans who want our immigration laws enforced being called racists, bigots and xenophones? Isn't that hate speech? Hypocricy rules here, doesn't it?

The way I look at it, I don't care what the NCLR or Lou Dobbs, etc. and their followers have to say about the illegal immigration issue, we should only be looking at what the laws of our country say.

This country has a long proud history of welcoming unauthorized immigrants too. Just look at all the unauthorized immigrants working.

Look at all the Americans buying fruits and vegetables harvested by labor of unauthorized immigrants. No one is boycotting.

Americans are eating steaks and chops at an all time high. No one is asking that these products be labeled to make sure that labor by unauthorized immigrants wasn't used.

Americans go out to eat at restaurants and fast food places every day and they never ask who is preparing the food or washing the dishes they are served on.

Americans live in houses built by the labor of the immigrants, and drive on roads paved by immigrants. No one is stopping to see if these immigrants are here legally or not.

Americans have their houses, hospitals, and offices cleaned by immigrants. They have their elderly and their children cared for by immigrants, and no one is asking who is legal and who is not.

It's just a few racist, hate mongers with big mouths, who aren't even going to vote because all the candidates like the majority of Americans also support the immigrants that are spewing all the hate.

Even the racist enjoy the products and services that immigrants provide, then cry and whine when they get demonized the way they demonize Hispanics and immigrants.

Everyone knows it has nothing to do with immigrants, it has everything to do with racism and the fact that this bunch of racists dont like Hispanics.

I said:

"3.State-promoted violence to strike fear into people belonging to the targeted minority. In Germany, violent raids on Jews' homes and businesses by heavily armed uniformed police (SA and SS), here today violent raids on immigrants' homes and workplaces by heavily armed uniformed police (ICE)."

Horace said:

This is really too much. ICE is merely arresting law breakers,

Horace, my friend, that is exactly my point. The Nazi SA and SS were also merely arresting law breakers. German laws stated clearly that Jews could not hold jobs, and Jews could not own businesses. Jews who worked in non-Jewish Germans' companies or who were self-employed were breaking the laws of the German state.

The Nazis said these laws were necessary to defend the German nation against the onslaught of Jews.

I have never heard any politican admit that allowing illegal aliens into our country was "pridefull". It certainly isn't a source of pride for your everyday working American and it certainly wasn't encourged by law abiding citizens.

No one knows if the apple they are eating was picked by a citizen, a legal immigrant or an illegal alien. They are all possibilites. Should a citizen put their health in jeapardy on the "possibility" that an illegal alien might have picked it? Again, the term "immigrant" is used when they are actually talking about an illegal alien. Why the smoke and mirrors and lies?

Race card pulling noted again while ignoring the racism on the other side of the issue who want as many of their own ethnic kind in this country even if it means advocating the breaking of our laws.

It truly is "hate speech" to call ones own law abiding fellow American citizens racists for wanting our immigration laws enforced and our borders secured.

laura, are there any Hispanic citizens or legal immigrants being denied jobs in our country or being denied the right to open a business in this country?

One problem with your argument Laura, is that every nation on the planet could be construed as Nazi-like, as most nations restrict the employment of aliens, legal or not, including everyone's favorite, Mexico.

Considering there has been no internationally recognized legitimate movement to advocate for unrestricted employment of illegal aliens, your case has little credibility. You're just blowing smoke up our butts, in a fashion similar to many who've falsely claimed the existence of the right of unrestricted movement of migrants.

You have some serious issues, Evelyn, try a therapist.

The laws from '86 were put in place and business owners were to filter the legal from the Illegal workers. The federal government would send out no match letters every now and then. The system failed due to the fake/phony/forged documents provided by the Illegals, because the excuse of "they looked real to me" from the business owners. Now with E-Verify, they no longer have that excuse, the Federal Government is attempting to do its job, filtering out legal from Illegal workers, taking that away from the hands of business'. The American Citizen does not have the right to walk up and ask to see "papers" of somebody that is working, it was up to the business owners to do that. The American Citizen was duped by the business owners, all for the love of money. Your rants are directed at the wrong group of people, the Citizens, when they should be directed at the greedy business owners for paying these workers unfairly, if at all, and exploiting them for their own profit. That is what most American Citizens want, the business held accountable and the federal government to do its job and enforce the laws that are on the books.

Jaime,
If all the Undocumented were to leave today, the American Economy would be doing just the same as it is already, no different. Our unemployment is rising already, thus undocumented as well are already out of work. Our economy will be going down for at least the next 2 years, maybe longer, unemployment will continue to rise, though it will top out eventually. About the only job American Citizens don't want to do is crop picking, mostly due to low wages. Again, farmers have cheated the system there and even the undocumented are being exploited by them instead of being taken care of through the H-2A Visa as required.

"Horace, my friend, that is exactly my point. The Nazi SA and SS were also merely arresting law breakers. German laws stated clearly that Jews could not hold jobs, and Jews could not own businesses. Jews who worked in non-Jewish Germans' companies or who were self-employed were breaking the laws of the German state."

Illegal immigrants are not Jews or Gypsies or being persecuted for their religion or race, but merely arrested and deported to their homes of record. You'd deny this nation the same right to arrest and deport as is excercised under the sovereign rights of every nation on earth, including Mexico and the rest of Latin America? Are all those nations Nazi-like. Would you be so bold to call Mexico Nazi-like as you are in disparaging your own country? By your analogies to the Nazis, you disrespect your country (presumably you are a U.S. citizen). Frankly, I am starting to suspect the loyalty of Hispanics to this nation and wonder who they would side with in a pinch. I recall a German plot during WWI that was called the Zimmerman Affair, where Germany invited Mexico to attack the U.S., with its support of course. The Mexicans bowed out only because their supply lines would be too vulnerable and they would be unable to control the populace due to the language difference. By the way Hispanics are so dismissive of our laws I find them to be poor citizens. Many apparently have learned nothing in the way of civics lessons in the schools. Considering more than half of all Hispanics in the LA school systems fail to graduate, I can understand their ignorance.

Horace said:
"By the way Hispanics are so dismissive of our laws I find them to be poor citizens."

Horace, my friend, your impression again is incorrect. Below, I pasted in part of a recent article in Time magazine, which I copied from their website.

"Despite our melting-pot roots, Americans have often been quick to blame the influx of immigrants for rising crime rates. But new research released Monday shows that immigrants in California are, in fact, far less likely than U.S.-born Californians are to commit crime. While people born abroad make up about 35% of California's adult population, they account for only about 17% of the adult prison population, the report by the Public Policy Institute of California (PPIC) showed. Indeed, among men ages 18 to 40 — the demographic most likely to be imprisoned — those born in the U.S. were 10 times more likely than foreign-born men to be incarcerated.

"From a public safety standpoint, there would be little reason to limit immigration," says Kristin Butcher, an economics professor at Wellesley College and one of the report's authors.

The new report even bolsters claims by some academics that increased immigration makes the United States safer. A second study, released earlier this month by Washington-based nonprofit Immigration Policy Center, found that on the national level, U.S.-born men ages 18-39 are five times more likely to be incarcerated than are their foreign-born peers. And, while the number of illegal immigrants in the country doubled between 1994 and 2005, violent crime declined by nearly 35% and property crimes by 26% over the same period. The PPIC even determined that on average, between 2000 and 2005, cities such as Los Angeles that took in a higher share of recent immigrants saw their crime rates fall further than cities with a lower influx of illegals."

As for the analogy to Nazi Germany: Fortunately, we have many people here standing up to defend democracy, civil rights and human rights of all residents of this country. Germany did not have these movements on such a scale. That is why, eventually, after committing unspeakable crimes against their minorities, majority Germans also suffered terribly in a war they started and lost. I am much more hopeful about our prospects here today. But democracy can always be lost if we are not vigilant and do not stand up to defend it.

And as I said, racist hate speech is prohibited by law in Germany today, in the form of actual state censorship, based on their own terrible experience.

Such strong words Horace:
” Frankly, I am starting to suspect the loyalty of Hispanics to this nation and wonder who they would side with in a pinch.”
“By the way Hispanics are so dismissive of our laws I find them to be poor citizens. Many apparently have learned nothing in the way of civics lessons in the schools. Considering more than half of all Hispanics in the LA school systems fail to graduate, I can understand their ignorance.”

Why don’t you tell the Hispanic families of the fallen soldiers that they their sons and daughters that have died for this country are not loyal or the sons and daughters that come back with missing limbs or physiological problems that they are not loyal? Why don’t you tell the children whose parents are over their fighting this war that their mommies and daddies are unpatriotic and disloyal to this country? Just to show you proof here is a list for you of ALL AMERICAN SOLDIERS who have lost their lives for this country. http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2003/iraq/forces/casualties/. Read it and look at the faces of these brave American Heroes and tell me that they are not loyal.

Also, just because you don’t feel undocumented immigrants should be here does not give you the right to start bashing all Hispanics. We are not ignorant or dismissive of the law. We are not lower class citizens just because we don’t agree with you politically or otherwise. This is what is great about this nation we can all agree and disagree or agree to disagree. I love this country like no other. I am proud to be an American as I am proud of being of Mexican descent. You think just because we can identify with our different cultures that we can’t identify with our American culture but you are wrong. Where but in America can you celebrate Christmas with the tree and Santa Clause and the Tres Reyes? Where but in America can you celebrate the 4th of July, Cinco de Mayo and have two new years? Where but in America can you have a Republican white neighbor love your child like it was her own and not think twice that the mother is a Hispanic Democrat?

Just think about it Horace, just think about it.

Racism is indeed alive and well, and immigration is no exception. The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 was the first legislation that significantly restricted immigration. It was later followed up by the Asian Exclusion Act of 1924. Both of these laws targeted specific groups and were, in part, instituted to preserve the superiority (in numbers) of Northern Europeans in the US.

It is not surprising then that we see the reemergence of terms like “invasion,” “hordes” that “swarm,” and “parasites.” Fear based on allegations that immigrants bring disease and crime are widely used, though unfounded.

Even though Jim Crow is gone and our immigration laws are finally no longer race-based, other forms of institutional racism have taken their place.

”By the way Hispanics are so dismissive of our laws I find them to be poor citizens.”

That’s funny, very much like putting the cart before the horse and then complaining that the horse is pushing too fast. Or are you really criticizing capitalism here? The laws of supply and demand are in effect. The real blame for the current situation should go to those that created the demand for cheap labor. But I am sure you do not want to be bothered with things like facts. They would just stand in the way of your ability to make disparaging remarks.

This is too easy. Throw out a bone, and voila, many are eager to display their Ignorance. ROTFL! :->

The Philadelphia Inquirer

Posted on Sun, Feb. 24, 2008

Editorial: Our Racist Past
It's time we spoke the hard truth

Prime Minister Kevin Rudd of Australia earlier this month formally apologized to the aborigines of his country for their long mistreatment.
Did Australia's global standing plummet? Is Australia a laughingstock? Did millions of fed-up Australians get the heck off the continent?

United States of America, take note: The next president should make a formal acknowledgment of slavery and other racist oppressions essential to the rise of this country - and what better place to get it done, in two or three sentences, than at the Inauguration itself?

In 1999, Switzerland apologized to Jewish refugees for its treatment of them during the Holocaust. Is Switzerland now diminished? Is it any less rich? Less respected?

Germany has repeatedly admitted its history of racism and genocide, beginning in the 1950s, when Chancellor Konrad Adenauer acknowledged Nazi war crimes in a meeting with Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion of Israel.

Germany today is one of the most successful democracies in the world. How has apology harmed Germany?

Pope John Paul II during his 2000 visit to Israel prayed repeatedly for forgiveness for Christians who oppressed Jews throughout history.

Did that weaken the church's moral authority? Or did it not rather strengthen it?

In January a new U.S. president will be sworn in. Afterward, he or she will turn to the nation and the world - and speak.

Something cries out to be said at that moment: that America is a great, beloved nation - but that its greatness was built on the backs of millions who were marginalized, oppressed and even enslaved.

This nation's history includes the enslavement of Africans, genocide against indigenous peoples in the Indian Wars, mass deportations of Asian workers in the 19th century, and the detention of Americans of Japanese descent during World War II (for which Congress did finally agree to an apology and compensation in 1987).

Every man and woman in this country, of every color and class, has what he and she has - or does not have - in part because of these legacies.

These sad facts do not diminish this country as it stands today. What diminishes this country is its guilty refusal to speak the truth.

It would take a few words of clear, direct English. If people abhor the word apology - at least recognize the wrong, express regret, ask forgiveness, vow to do better. Speak the truth.

The new president need not speak a single divisive syllable. Speak to all Americans on behalf of all Americans. This will be a call on all to let go of denial, see the past clearly, and say: This nation is better than that and will never let it happen again.

Why has no president ever done this? Politics. Ideology. Cowardice on all sides. But that could change. Easily.

A man who has suffered imprisonment and torture for his country - surely he has the courage to say these words.

A woman who as a first lady and U.S. senator has never stuttered about the need to raise the oppressed - surely she has the courage to say these words.

A man with an African father and an American mother, a man who knows many faces of our multicolored, manifold society - surely he has the courage.

But will any of them do it?

Or will our nation be shamed by Australia, the Vatican and Switzerland?

Will we keep a warm seat on the couch for the gorilla in the room?

Or, in the sight of the human and the divine, can truth finally be spoken - and a whole nation step forward, stronger than ever?
_____________________

The most important lesson to be learned is for all American Citizens to fight those ignorant few who advocate for these mistakes to be repeated. What an embarrassment that these types still exist, in the most powerful country in the world. These racist dont give a second thought to crushing the U.S. as she stands today. Their only thought is satisfying their hate-mongering, bigoted ways.

I will attempt to cover some of the remarks made in here by a few.

First, the reports about crimes committed by foreigners here uses the word "immigrant" not illegal aliens. So using common sense the stats in the reports are not about the latter but the former.

All of these reports that the pro-illegals post in here are no more credible than any reports that the anti-illegals post in here. Why don't we debate from the points of common sense, logic and the rule of law instead? Let's not muddy the waters of the rights of those who have taken up residency in our country illegally and legal residents. There is a huge difference between the rights of legal residences and illegal residences.

Anyone in our military above all should be opposed to illegal immgigration in our country. Afterall, they are sworn to defend our country abroad and in our own country from foreign incursion.

The only legal Hispanics that I know that might get "bashed" as you call it, are those who advocate the illegal entry of their own ethnic kind into this country and then turn around and call law abiding Americans racists for not advocating the same. If the shoe fits, wear it. If it doesn't then it doesn't apply to you. Different cultural pracitices or holidays have nothing to do with the illegal immigration issue so I don't know why that was even brought up.

Perhaps in past history racism did play a part in immigration as far as our government policies went. But today our government does not practice racial discrimination in immigration issues. We have fair quotas for most and in fact Latino immmigration is second only to Asians in our quotas. Whites are alloted even less of a quota.

After this nation was established as the U.S. most immigrants came here legally. We cannot and should not tolerate illegal immigration. We may be a nation based on capitalism but we are also a nation of laws. If we don't remain so we can kiss capitalism and many other things that have made this country successfull goodbye and welcome chaos and corruption instead. We are already on our way there. Let's nip it in the bud now.

Many immigrants were legal only because there were no rules
Sunday, July 22, 2007
BY BRIAN DONOHUE
There are many solid arguments for why the United States should not grant legal status to illegal immigrants, as proposed in the Senate immigration reform bill quashed last month.

But throughout the immigra tion debate, one particular mantra was heard from opponents of legalization, perhaps more than any other:

"My ancestors came here legally."

So too, the argument holds, must today's immigrants. We're a nation of laws, we must be consistent, and we must not reward law breakers.

It's a mighty handy argument that worked wonders for oppo nents of the legalization bill. It's logical, and draws a clear moral distinction between previous generations of law-abiding immigrants and today's border-jumpers. It heads off allegations of xenophobia, allowing the speaker to say it's not immigrants he or she is against, just illegality.

It works, too, because it rings true with Americans. The images burned into our brains of previous immigration waves come largely from newsreels and photos of immigrants disembarking at Ellis Island, one at a time, orderly, legally.

There's one problem with the argument. It's utter hogwash.

First of all, for hundreds of years, as immigrants poured in by the hundreds of thousands from the 1600s to the early 1900s, there were simply no federal immigration laws to break.

Unless you were a criminal or insane (or after 1882, Chinese), once you landed here, you were legal.

Crediting yesteryear's immigrants with following the laws is like calling someone a good driver because they never got caught speeding on the Autobahn.

"Only 1 percent of people who showed up at Ellis Island were turned away," said Mae Ngai, author of "Impossible Subjects: Illegal Aliens and the Making of Modern America."

"What that statement is ignorant of is that we didn't always have restrictions. It's a fairly recent phenomenon."

Level the playing field hypothetically, and the argument becomes even more preposterous.

Imagine today's immigration laws, which make it impossible for most poor foreign farmers to immigrate legally -- in effect in, say, in 1849.

Somewhere in Ireland, a starving farmer turns to his family, their mouths green from eating grass in the midst of the potato famine.

"We could escape to America and have food to eat," the farmer says. "But I'd never do that without a visa. That would be a violation of U.S. immigration law."

Ridiculous, of course. That farmer would have done exactly what today's Mexicans, Chinese and Guatemalans are doing by the millions -- get to the United States so they can feed their families, and worry about getting papers later.

Which brings us to the second reason the "my ancestors came legally" argument is absurd.

It's because lots of people's ancestors simply didn't.

Once Congress put immigration quotas in place to keep out less desirable Eastern and Southern Europeans in 1921, they began sneaking in by the thousands.

On June 17, 1923, the New York Times reported that W.H. Husband, commissioner general of immigration, had been trying for two years "to stem the flow of immigrants from central and southern Europe, Africa and Asia that has been leaking across the borders of Mexico and Canada and through the ports of the east and west coasts."

A story from the Sept. 16, 1927, New York Times describes government plans for stepped up Coast Guard patrols because thousands of Chinese, Japanese, Greeks, Russians and Italians were landing in Cuba and then hiring smugglers to take them to the United States, illegally.

Two years earlier, the immigration service reported that 1.4 million immigrants might be living illegally in the U.S., according to the immigration service's 1925 annual report.

"The figures presented are worthy of very serious thought, especially when it is considered that such a great percentage of our population ... whose first act upon reaching our shores was to break our laws by entering in a clandestine manner," the report found.

The problem got so bad that the government was forced to legalize an estimated 200,000 illegal European immigrants by a process called pre-examination. These days, the process would be called amnesty.

Clearly, if everyone's grandparents said they immigrated legally, someone's grandparents were lying.

"When people cite their grandparents, they're basically operating with a very limited understanding of what immigration was back then," said Edward O'Donnell, author of "1001 Things Everyone Should Know About Irish American History."

"There's nothing people are more proud of than these huddled masses yearning to breathe free. It's based on a very skewed or no knowledge of history."

Stanford University history professor Richard White discovered that after he began researching a book on his family's immigrant past.

White found his grandfather tried to immigrate from Ireland through Canada in 1936 because he could not get a visa under the quota laws.

"He tried to come through Detroit. It was hard to get caught at Detroit, but he managed to get caught," White said. Back in Canada, his grandfather called his brother, a Chicago police officer, who crossed the border and met him there. The two then walked to Detroit, his brother flashing his Chicago policeman's badge to U.S. customs officers who waved the pair through.

"I wouldn't be here, my brothers wouldn't be here if illegal aliens had been rounded up and dragged out," said White, a 1992 Pulitzer Prize finalist.

Few people say what White does in public. But since Ngai wrote her book in 2005, she has heard from some of them. They're not going on talk shows, blogging or writing letters to newspaper editors. But they're out there, even if they don't know it.

Perhaps if the Senate's legalization bill comes around again, their story could be a rallying cry for those in favor of amnesty.

"Their voice drops to a whisper," Ngai says. "And they say to me, "you know, my grandparents came illegally."

Brian Donohue is a Star-Ledger staff writer who covers immigration
~~~~~~~~~~~

Many people forget we are also a nation of immigrants. Many people also forget the Immigrants are working. If the immigrants were not working. They would not be here.

They are here because we need the goods and services they provide us at affordable prices.

Some people say those jobs should be done by white people.

White people have all the advantages, and they speak English.

If they cannot land one of these jobs, something is wrong. The white people need to go after the employers that are not willing to hire them.

Maby it's because they dont want to work like the employers claim.

Laura, seems you only read the headline and the bold print of your report. Try reading the whole report to include the notes at the end, it will give a much clearer picture. Especially notes #3, 8, 9, 18, 21, 22, 24.

Immigration and
Crime: A Complex
Relationship
Do immigrants add to the crime risk in the population?
Like any form of population growth, immigration is likely to add to the total number of crimes committed. However, if immigrants are less criminally active than the U.S.-born, then immigration will lead to lower overall crime rates and lower likelihoods of any given individual becoming a crime victim. Of course, some crimes, by their very nature, are committed only by immigrants— for example, illegally entering the country or working without a proper visa. In the analysis presented here, we focus on criminal activity that both the U.S.-born and foreign-born are at risk of committing and that arguably is a more direct threat to public safety. With that focus in mind, we assess the relative crime rates among the foreign-born and the U.S.-born.

…

Currently, U.S. immigration policy provides several mechanisms that are likely to reduce the criminal activity of immigrants. Legal immigrants are screened with regard to their criminal backgrounds. In addition, all non-citizens, even those in the United States legally, are subject to deportation if convicted of a criminal offense that is punishable by a prison sentence of a year or more, even if that sentence is suspended. Furthermore, those in the country illegally have an additional incentive to avoid contact with law enforcement—even for minor offenses—since such contact is likely to increase the chances that their illegal status will be revealed.

To answer our initial question— are the foreign-born more likely than the U.S.-born to commit crimes—we would need a complete set of information on individuals’ criminal activities, regardless of whether they are ever caught, tried, convicted, or sentenced for these activities, and a complete set of individual characteristics, including for the foreign-born the conditions under which they entered the country. As with most studies, we do not have ideal data. This lack of data restricts the questions we will be able to answer. In particular, we cannot focus on the undocumented population explicitly.

…

For those who are not in the country legally, deportation is a potential penalty of apprehension for a minor crime and is more likely for conviction of a serious one.(3) If one is in the country illegally—either by illegal entry or by abusing a visa—then one is deportable even without criminal activity. But criminal activity makes it more likely that one’s illegal status will come to the attention of authorities.

…

The Criminal Justice
Funnel
These findings are noteworthy, but it is important to keep in mind that interpreting differences in incarceration as a direct representation of differences in underlying criminal activity can be problematic. We must also take into account the processes of law enforcement that mediate the relationship between crime and incarceration. These processes, sometimes known as the criminal justice “funnel,” are represented in Figure 4. The sequence goes like this: Before becoming incarcerated, those who engage in criminal activity must first be apprehended and arrested. Among those arrested, some fraction is charged and prosecuted. Of those prosecuted, a fraction is convicted. Of those convicted, the sentence must be severe enough to warrant a term of incarceration for an individual to appear in data on incarceration and institutionalization. These intervening steps require that caution be used when inferring criminal activity from observations about the end point—incarceration or institutionalization.

….

Does Deportation
Matter?
If incarceration and institutionalization rates have the same relationship with criminal activity for the foreign-born and the U.S.-born—that is, if both groups are treated equally in the criminal justice system—then the data presented here indicate that the foreign-born have remarkably low rates of criminal offending in California. Of course, there are a number of reasons to wonder if the relationship between institutionalization and criminal activity is the same for the foreign-born and the U.S.-born. Differences in treatment between the foreign-born and the U.S.-born at any juncture in the criminal justice system may lead to differences in institutionalization rates for a given level of criminal activity.
Such differences could skew our findings in either direction, by inflating the institutionalization rates of either the foreign-born or the U.S.-born. For example, the U.S.-born may be better able to aid in their own defense and thus have lower probabilities of conviction or shorter sentences conditional on conviction.(18) At the same time, if the foreign-born are swiftly deported for criminal activity, then their institutionalized numbers will be low relative to their actual criminal activity.
How much does deportation matter? Unfortunately, neither the federal nor the state government provides data on the numbers of deported prisoners in sufficient detail for us to assess fully the role of deportation on institutionalization rates of the foreign-born.(19)
However, a brief examination of the current deportation processes will allow us to make some educated guesses. Of course, we cannot fully analyze here the complicated ways in which deportation rules interact with state and local law enforcement; instead, we will simply provide an overview.

Evelyn,

No matter how much rationalization of this issue you do, no thinking person is going to abandon our rule of law for your sake or the sake of illegal aliens. There will be no amnesty. State after state will continue to enact laws that will result in the repatriation of your friends. Listen to the news. Thousands are returning to Mexico every day, and the numbers will only grow as the numbers of states enacting legislation increase. This best thing for you to do is to go back to Mexico and stay there and help them out.

Most any immigrant who entered this country prior to 1920 when immigration laws were established is dead and gone so it matters not what they did. If there were no immigration laws then they didn't break any. Besides it has nothing to do with the present. We cannot be held accountable for what dead people did. We are not them and they are not us. We have to go by what has occured since 1920 when immigration laws were established. It is ridiculous to argue from the point of "what was" rather than "what is".

Yes, we were a nation of immigrants at one time but we were never a nation of illegal aliens. We are now a nation of Americans. Most of us alive today were born here or naturalized here. Time to drop the anchor around our necks of "we are a nation of immigrants". Yes, we still do take in immigrants just like most other countries but that doesn't make us a nation of immigrants anymore as most of us are Americans now. Why are other nations who take in immigrant not called a nation of immigrants then?

The campaign to stop the hate of NCLR is a good first step.

I did what they are suggesting - wrote to Fox and MSNBC. Marisa, Evelyn and all people of good will - please consider doing this.

Suggestion for a next step: Sponsors of shows such as Lou Dobbs will be requested to stop advertising on racist anti-immigrant shows. If they continue, we will boycott their products.

You have every right to dream.

That's real funny, Laura, as Lou has been given a three hour radio show to profess his message. You can try to silence the truth, but this is the U.S., not Mexico. By advocatinng the silencing of Lou Dobbs in his 1st Amendment right, you only serve to expose yourselves for the tyrants that you are. Censorship does not work in the U.S.

Your advocacy groups are dumber than I thought. First they initiate marches that serve only to turn the general public against illegal aliens, and then they try censorship. Better hope that it never happens. Many citizens may not like Lou Dobbs message, but most will support his right to free expression. If they perceive that his right to free speech has been stifled, there will be a backlash like nothing you've seen yet. If La Raza wasn't so stupid, they'd accept that Dobbs is here to stay and try something less provocative. I love it when people shoot themselves in the foot. Let the games begin!

Marisa, what do you think about censoring Lou Dobbs? You could be next, if someone doesn't like your message.

The illegals are here fattening the wallets of corrupt employers not your everyday working American. This isn't a race issue about just whites losing their jobs. It is about blue collar workers of every ethnicity in this country being undercut by cheap illegal labor.

Because of these millions of mostly Spanish speakers here illegally, English speakers are being discriminated against in the employment arena.

The SAVE ACT will go after the employers of which the pro-illegals claim they want but yet read the threads in here and the pro-illegals oppose this legislation. Why? Because they only want the employers punished but not the illegals. They are both guilty, so they should both be punished. It would be hypocritical to not want justice served to all involved.

Most Americans are not lazy. We built the most successful country in the world and we didn't do it by laziness. There are millions of American blue collar workers in this country and they depend on jobs in construction and other manual labor jobs to survive. But they can't do it for half the wage it use to pay.

I agree. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Let's stop all the hate speech and that includes calling law abiding Americans, racists, bigots and xenophobes.

Then again there is that little thing called "freedom of speech" that is guaranteed to all of us by our Constitution.

The Return of Native Americans as Immigrants

New America Media, Commentary, Louis E.V. Nevaer, Posted: Oct 24, 2007

The United States is seeing a resurgence of Native Americans in the form of immigrants who are descendents of North America’s indigenous populations. As Native Americans, they are terrifying precisely because they have a moral claim to cross the borders imposed on their lands, writes NAM contributor Louis E.V. Nevaer.

As the immigration debate rages throughout the nation, the lingering, but unspoken, fear is that illegal immigration from Mexico heralds the return of the Native American.

“The persistent inflow of Hispanic immigrants threatens to divide the United States into two peoples, two cultures, and two languages,” Samuel Huntington famously argued in Foreign Affairs magazine in March 2004, unleashing a firestorm of protests among U.S. Hispanics and Latinos. “Unlike past immigrant groups, Mexicans and other Latinos have not assimilated into mainstream U.S. culture, forming instead their own political and linguistic enclaves — from Los Angeles to Miami — and rejecting the Anglo-Protestant values that built the American dream.”

In fact, almost all Mexican immigrants are descendents of North America’s indigenous peoples. As Native Americans, they are terrifying precisely because they have a moral claim to migrate throughout the nation-states imposed on their lands.

This vilification of immigrants differs from the same sentiment of earlier generations. Previously, Americans debated and settled immigration issues through legislation: the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798 to keep French and Irish Catholics out, the anti-Papist sentiment that fueled Nativism in the 19th century aimed at Italian, Irish and German immigrants, the xenophobia that culminated in the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882, and the “Gentlemen’s Agreement” of 1907 aimed at the Japanese.

In “The Clash of Civilizations and the Remaking of World Order,” Huntington argued that the Mexican state was complementary to the American one, both heirs of Europe and the Enlightenment. This suggests that the cultural conflict he fears is between Western versus Native American.

He is correct. Native Americans are indifferent to the Western values used to obliterate them, and he recognize