Marisa, you say:

"It is time for real change in Washington and we can't afford to let that goal get muddled by egos or swan songs that won't take a final curtain call."

No one could have said it better. It is time for Hillary Clinton supporters to stop and think about whether they want another 4 years of Bush-style economics, Bush-style warmongering, and Bush-style immigration raids. That is what John McCain stands for.

It is hard to believe people aren't hurting enough already after 8 years of Bush rule, that they would give even a single thought to voting for the Republican.

Oh yeah we want Obama who has ties with domestic terrorism. No experience and want to give 800 billion of our wealth to the UN in that global poverty scam. Money like that could fix our bridges and dams. We shouldn't be dying for the UN or for any other country. They have problems they should sort it out themselves. Plus what good has the UN done besides over seeing genocide and child rape from their own peacekeepers. I don't want to see another black hawk down. I don't want to see another Kosovo. We need to get back to Washington foreign policy and not have ourselves involve in world affairs. We need to secure the border and get rid of the 14th admendment. Time for Americans to look after ourselves for once.

Marisa,

First and foremost , I am an American who cares deeply about her country.
And that is why I cannot vote for
Barak Obama. Let me make a simple analogy - brain surgery cannot be left to a medical student even if the chief of surgery is standing next to him. Joe
Biden is not the candidate for President
Barak Obama is.

Barak Obama has no executive experience at the state or level.
Barak Obama has federal experience
- he spent most of his time in the Senate away campaigning for President.

I am sad that the more qualified candidates in the Democratic party
(Biden, Dodd , Clinton) did not get the
nomination.

I honestly believe that voting for a
Democratic Congress is the answer.

I can live with 4 years of John McCain -
will I vote for him ? I dont know, but for the first time in my life I will be listening to what the Republican
candidate has to say.

I cant vote for Barak Obama- a baby should not be President of the United
States.

John McCain is not George Bush.
I am not so stupid as to believe that
particular Obama koolaid.

Vote for a Democratic Congress -

Irma, I don't understand your logic. Simply based on age, Obama is not qualified in your opinion? I think we have to remember that one of the most important qualities of any candidate, regardless of age, is the ability to listen to those around her/him and cull the collective wisdom that they bring to the table. A young person is much more prone to do that than someone who is so set in their ways, due to age or arrogance, that they dismiss any other way of thinking than their own. Sadly, we've seen it with the Bush Administration. If you think this is something that is hard to see for ourselves, there's a clear litmus test for it. Look at how the candidates interact with the press at all times. It's one thing to get tired of the press for asking incessant questions but they ask on OUR behalf. If a candidate is constantly irritated with the press and flippant and dismissive, chances are that is a candidate who doesn't feel he/she owes an explanation for their actions to anyone. Yet, a candidate who takes the time to talk and explain and not be dismissive ranks far higher in a quality that every leader should have — remembering they are there to serve the people and with that territory comes the obligation to answer to the public.

Obama talks in vague terminology and never explains anything. He makes generalized statements like "I'm going to put Americans back to work again by creating more jobs" Sounds like a good plan, but how, what's it going to cost, how will everyone be included? He is a media created fraud with a shady background and is being handled by people that have not been exposed to the public, as of yet. Once we see who his puppeteers are, the nation will not think so highly of him. Obama is a junior Senator with 2 years experience and no real accomplishments at a federal level. Just because he can pull the wool over the eyes of the simple minded with all the hope and change BS doesn't qualify him to be Commander-in-Chief of the U.S. military. We are living in dangerous times and need someone with the experience and nerves to stand up for Americans if military actions are required in the defense of our country. Obama is not that man and I personally don't believe that the majority of Americans trust him to be 100% behind what is best for our country. He will rip away the fabric that has kept this nation strong and allow our enemies to see a weakened America ripe for the taking. For the love of America, give us strong leadership, experienced leadership and the wisdom to not put a light-weight in control of our destiny.

As for someone being arrogant, no politician in recent history has displayed the extreme level of arrogance that the fraud Obama has.

I said nothing about age. Bill Clinton was younger as presidential candidate thanBarak Obama is now. Obama
has no experience as a LEADER.
He was not a governor or a mayor and his time in the Senate has been shorter than a blink.

I have looked very hard at Obama's life story looking for evidence of self less ness.
I dont see it . His whole life was about
promoting himself, creating essentially
a myth about himself. I see no evidence of
a "listener" in Barak Obama. He knows best - always, always , always. In the Senate, Barak Obama deliberately chose not to befriend anyone. He was a loner.

I doubt that with Obama's ego , that he will be content when Biden the perennial candidate for President begins to try to steal the show. The Democrats have messed it up again - even if Obama gets
elected, it will be for one term.

You say that a leader should serve the public. This is something Obama hasnt done. There hasnt been time to do that. How can you be the Senator for Illinois, if you spend all your time running for President ?

I will not vote for John McCain. But he
HAS served his country, as a soldier
rotting away in a prison for 5 years -
as a senator for over 2 decades.
He is qualified to be President of the United States, but I dont happen to
agree with many of his policies.
Now, all I have to do is decide is whether
my views are more important that what my country needs right now.

I hate the democratic congress. A 100 million dollars for a museum not being built in our country but in Poland. Goes on a 5 week Vacation when the American people are suffering. Shuts down the oposition voices when both sides must be listen to in the house. Is it a wonder they have a single didget approval rating. Vote independent. Both parties are like the blood and the cripes.

Congratulations to all the RACISTS on this forum.

You have won!!!

I am being censored and you are going to be allowed to keep spewing your hate.

Who said whining will get you nowhere. Oh, that's right I did.

Well I was wrong. Marisa has decided to take your side and that is fine as it is her Forum.

I thought she would be impartial but I was wrong.

She gave in just like congress did.

Just remember after CIR is passed that you might have won this battle but you will lose the war.

There are plenty of racist forums where one is not allowed to expose racism.

Now this one will be one more.

I am leaving because there is no reason to post here anymore.

The forum has been handed to you on a silver platter. Too bad!

I think maybe Marisa wont print this. Oh well.....

Irma, it will only be a positive for you to listen to what the "other side" has to say.

It is my honest opinion that neither Republicans or Democrats have the right answers. Especially now, Democrats want a huge, nanny state government apparatus which in no way comports with the vision our founding fathers had for this nation.

Western Europe has followed this model with pretty much disasterous results; they are now in the process of electing conservative governments. They are going bankrupt because they have no more funding for their out of control social programs, extremely low productivity (35 hour or less work weeks), and high unemployment, especially amongst their youth. And these a mostly small-population countries where Socialistic policies are easier to implement.

Then many of the Republicans are locked into the religion of "free trade," globalization, outsourcing. They measure how well the country is doing by the GDP and not by the quality of life of individual Americans.

Each side makes some good points and has bad points IMO. Granted I am only 20-something so I'm not speaking from the wisdom of the ages. But, it just seems very wise to listen to what others have to say, especially if you haven't done so before.

My parents, grandparents, great-grandparents were dyed-in-the-wool Dems. I have decided to pursue a more independent route; I choose to think for myself, do a lot of reading, educate myself on various sides of an issue (there is often more than one way to look at something).

Good luck.

Thank you Marisa, for finally deciding to make sure that only civil debate occurs in your blog. There is no need for name calling and false accusations of others when debating the important issues facing our nation today. It does nothing but divide us rather than unite us. You have earned my respect as a human and as a Hispanic citizen.

Dear Alessandra, Western Europe actually is looking pretty good. They have a much lower infant mortality, longer life expectancy, better internet connectivity, and are even on average growing significantly taller than we!

I suggest you go into a big station in the US, let's say Penn Station in New York City, and then go into a big station anywhere in Western Europe. The difference between grunge here and gleaming floors and doors there is like night and day!

As for bankrupt - there is not a single country in Western Europe as bankrupt as the United States after decades of Republican rule. That goes both for the budgets at the national levels, and for the individual citizens. US citizens are crazy deep in debt. You wouldn't catch the French or the Germans in the kind of debt we are in.

My friend - those people know that their taxes are there to actually pay teacher's salaries, school buildings, hospitals, nurses, bridges and parks. Here our taxes are shunted directly into the pockets of Bush's and Cheney's friends - at Halliburton, KBR, Blackwater, Exxon - you name them.

So you want 4 more years of this.

Querida Evelyn, calmate. No se que paso. But generally I think we should never take anything very personally. Generally most things are not intended personally.

Nosostras te queremos y te necesitamos. Como necesitamos a todos que quieren justicia.

Alessandra, I wonder why you would say the Democratic Party wants a “huge, nanny state government.” I wonder if you could tell us which political party favors controlling a woman’s right to choose what do with her body. Or perhaps which wants to tell us who we should or should not share our lives with. Or even may tell us which party in recent years was instrumental in passing the largest expansion of government entitlements, complete with no-bid purchasing.

Political philosophers of the Age of Enlightenment inspired the Founding Fathers profoundly. Nowhere is that more evident than in Thomas Jefferson’s opening paragraphs of The Declaration of Independence. His sentences could have easily been taken from the works of John Locke and Jean Jacques Rousseau. They were advocates of a theory that a government and its people are in fact entered into a social contract with one another. Maybe that libertarian propaganda about nanny governments sounds good to you, but a trip to Wikipedia may give you a more balanced view.

John “Maverick” McCain supported BushCo policies 95% of the time (and the rest of the Republicans in Congress supported him 100%). Why would we need another four years of poor job creation, massive budget deficits, a failed foreign policy, and poor economic growth?

If the European Union is doing as bad as you say, how is It that the Euro has risen in value over the last seven and half years as compared to the US Dollar? The BushCo tax cuts, tax cuts that mainly benefitted the wealthy in country, has resulted in a $2.5 trillion increase in public debt. And the shifting of the tax burden down to the middle class make this a wealth transfer of $2.5 trillion to the wealthy. McInsane says we need to give the rich even more money without ever explaining how he is going to pay for BushCo’s immoral war of aggression.

I do not fault you for wanting to be an independent thinker, but it does not take a lot of thought or research to see that Republican Party economic policies got us where we are today, on the verge of economic collapse, and that they have a long history of doing the same. Under the eight-year term of Bill Clinton, the Stock Market increased in value by about 320%. If Bush is lucky, the Market might see 20% growth.

The best you will ever get from Republicans in 2008 is an argument over “image politics.” Image does not put food on the table, pay the doctor bill, or keep you safe.

Evelyn and all, sorry I didn't respond to your post sooner but have only had time to post your comments. First, I have not handed Latina Lista over to those nativists or racists. Nor do I feel I am censoring you as you believe.

What I am advocating is a change in vocabulary on both sides of the issue in how we frame this debate going onward. Evelyn, I know you are a passionate supporter and defender, and I appreciate that very much, believe me I do. But there comes a time when we do have to move on and change the delivery, but keep the same message — me entiendes?

As you've seen from Frank's post, he's let out a secret that he's kept close to his chest - he's Hispanic. His revelation doesn't change anything other than makes the debate a tad more interesting on this forum.

At any rate, Evelyn, I wish you would reconsider leaving Latina LIsta. I think from here on out, as these immigration raids increase, your added voice against them will serve a valuable service in speaking for migrant's rights.

Marisa

John McCain voted with Bush
95^ of the time. Barak Obama
has almost no Senate voting record. How can you vote for someone when you dont know what they actually believe in?

Barak Obama went to Berlin and made a speech about the people
of the world. A key point of the speech was a recitation of countries of the world. He mentioned all of Europe, Kenya, Zimabawe, South Africa.
Guess what he "forgot"

Central America, Mexico and all the countries of South America. Wow- he remembers
Zimbawe and he cant remember
Mexico? Latinos are not
immportant to him - THINK
before you vote for him.

You dont have to vote for President. Vote for a
Democratic Congress but dont vote for a man who cant even
remember Latinos.

Marisa, if you feel that myself and others in here who support our immigration laws are racists and nativists then my purpose in here is gone.

You can invite Evelyn back and she can continue to spew her hatred of the white race and calling anyone who doesn't agree with her immigration views, a racist.

Adios!

Laura, I believe we have only had eight years of Republicans. Before that we had eight years of Clinton. Republicans took the WH back in the mid-90s, but lost it in the 2006. Before the mid-90s, Democrats held the WH for forty years or so (from my reading).

My point is that neither party has been effective in solving this country's most pressing problems. Neither side has done anything about the energy situation; although from my reading, it should have been apparent back in the 70s that we needed to make changes. Neither side was serious about solving the immigration situation either. There are other areas that both parties have neglected also.

IMHO until we stop looking at things from a partisan perspective and start searching for pragmatic solutions to problems, we are going to continue to follow in the same pattern.

I disagree with you on Europe. I have family there and so have spent a great deal of time there. Their standard of living is not as high as ours. They are having a great deal of trouble maintaining their vast social services; remember also that these are very small population countries compared to the U.S. Labor laws are very stringent there. Not too long ago French youth rioted in the streets protesting the fact that the government wanted to pass a new law to make it easier to fire incompetent workers. You see employers were not hiring young, untested workers because once they were hired, it was almost impossible to fire them if they were not good employees. Therefore, employers just were not hiring young (under 26) untested workers. The new law would have loosened that up a bit and encouraged employers to take a chance on inexperienced young workers. Years of Socialism has fostered a rather blase work ethic there, especially amongst the young and unemployment for youth was in the double digits (somewhere around 16% I believe). They rioted for days over this slight change in the labor law.

That's not to say that they are all wrong and that we can not learn from them in certain areas. For example, France gets about 80% of its electricity from atomic energy.

We do have a lot of problems with our deficit and trade imbalances which I mentioned in my post. We need "fair trade." This is an area in which I very much disagree with Republicans.

Bush has been an out-of-control spender and that seems to be a really sore spot among most conservatives. They really don't like him for that. But, there is a difference between neo-cons and paleo-cons. The neo-cons tend to favor more international intervention, more spending and the paleo are more isolationist and favor very small government and low taxes.

Dems have always been the party of entitlements. That's why most poor immigrants (like my ancestors were) sign up for the Dems when they first come here. They believe in using the power of the government to solve problems; whereas, Republicans favor using the private sector. In addition, the extreme liberals are more like the Democratic Socialists of Western Europe than traditional Democrats. JFK today would probably be considered a Republican by them.

I personally do not believe that taking money away from people who have worked hard to earn it and redistributing it in the form of government entitlements/programs (Socialistic/Marxist principles) is what this country was founded to be. That's just my opinion. $250,000 might sound like a lot, but it really would be a small/medium-sized business. Taking away the salaries of employees and other expenses and overhead, it really isn't as much as it sounds. Success and achievement should not be punished. That just discourages innovation and people taking risks which in the long run slows down an economy.

OTOH, corporate welfare, fraud, exploitation is no good either. That's why you have to keep an eye on both sides.

I personally think we need a third party, but I don't know when that will be feasible.

Marisa,

The other Latin blogs are talking about the fact that the Obama Latin Delegation
is maybe not Latin. Are they right
and if they are , could you write a piece about that ?

Irma, I haven't heard this. In all my dealings with the Obama campaign's Latino outreach people, I haven't met anyone who is not Latino. Can you tell me which blogs are writing about this so I can check it out? Thanks!

Correction:

First paragraph should read as follows:

I believe we have only had eight years of Republicans. Before that we had eight years of Clinton. Republicans took the Congress back in the mid-90s, but lost it in the 2006 to the Dems. Before the mid-90s, Democrats held the Congress for forty years or so.

Cocoanut caucus, Brown views.

I realize the first is a bit conservative, but hey Latinos have that branch too.

I myself fall into the moderate faction on most issues except immigration, affirmative action and the death penalty.

Even abortion is something that is not a deal breaker for me.

Evelyn,

I read your post in HB and I am calling you on a couple of your lies and the things you conveniently left out in your post in HB about why Frank left. Frank stated to Marisa in here that he was leaving because Marisa herself was implying that he was a nativist and a racist. She had already reined you in on all of your personal attacks on him and others in here, so don't get your head all swollen with arrogance with your lie about that. He didn't leave because of you....you had already left.

Another thing you conveniently left out in HB was the fact that you attacked the whole white race over and over. That was another reason that Marisa reined you in!

Hopefully, if you do come back and post in here, you won't continue that same kind of behavior in here with the rest of us who don't agree with your views. I hope that Marisa won't allow you to do that. We already lost one good patriot in here who was treated like dirt by you.

Evelyn, you also said that Frank left LL because Marisa had invited you back. Not true! It was the part in that same post where Marisa implied that Frank and some others in here were nativists and racists. It had nothing to do with Evelyn at that point. Frank left because of Marisa's remarks. He wasn't going to tolerate that from the blog owner also.

WOW, I must say I am flattered.

Tell truth now. You know you told all the lies because you want me back!

You just knew I wouldent be able to resist coming back. LOL!

Michaela said:
Evelyn,

I read your post in HB and I am calling you on a couple of your lies and the things you conveniently left out in your post in HB about why Frank left.

E
This is what I stated at HB

Attacking Marisa shows you dont have a valid argument. Way I heard it she blocked you because of vulgarity.

I on the other hand chose to leave because when I called Frank a racist he asked that I be censored. She kind of did censor me and because my purpose for being there is to expose racism I chose to leave.

She has asked me to come back and I am going to go back because of an overwhelming amount of Emails from people who say they are counting on me. Especially one from a 9 year old boy that made me cry.

Frank got mad because she asked me back and stated he is leaving. This is not the subject here so lets try to stick to the VP pick before we get called on it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Frank stated to Marisa in here that he was leaving because Marisa herself was implying that he was a nativist and a racist.

E
This is what He stated, so don't get your head all swollen with arrogance with your lie about that.

Like I stated at HB, he left in part because she invited me back.

Frank :
Marisa, if you feel that myself and others in here who support our immigration laws are racists and nativists then my purpose in here is gone.
You can invite Evelyn back and she can continue to spew her hatred of the white race and calling anyone who doesn't agree with her immigration views, a racist.
Adios!
~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another thing you conveniently left out in HB was the fact that you attacked the whole white race over and over. That was another reason that Marisa reined you in!

E
You are putting words in Marisa's mouth. Show me where she said, I attack the white race over and over. Doesn't lying embarrass you?

Even Marisa admitted what she omitted was very little when she stated, "Nor do I feel I am censoring you as you believe."

When I looked back at the posts the only thing she left out were my statements accusing the person of being racist, or having views based on racism.

YOU are trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Speaking of reining in, what will be reined in here is all the lies you ethnocentrist like to spew. BASTA! YA!

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hopefully, if you do come back and post in here, you won't continue that same kind of behavior in here with the rest of us who don't agree with your views. I hope that Marisa won't allow you to do that.

E
This is Marissa's blog and I will respect her wishes and not use the word racist anymore if that is what you are refering to.

I am sure she has better things to do then sit there and remove the word racist from all my posts.

I will however continue to debunk all the lies, and will continue to expose the TRUE culprits of all the things you blame the immigrants for.

YOU do not make the rules and I could care less what your wishes, hopes or desires are. I am not here to please you or any of the other ethnocentrist.

I am here to fight for people like a nine year old boy that sent me an email, explaining that when his mother died, (he was four) he missed her very much.

He told me his dad married his new mom and he loved her with all of his heart, but was afraid she would be sent back to Mexico because when his dad tried to fix her papers she was denied because she had come in undocumented before.

He told me how when his grandmother became ill his mom wouldent hear of sending her to a nursing home and takes care of her.

He told me how his dad likes to read LL because he thinks people like me can help his mom fix her situation.

He told me he is afraid he will never see his older brother who doesent have papers either, if they send his mom to Mexico.

He also said he has two small sisters and is worried there will be no one to care for them if she is sent back.

He asked me to come back and fight for his mom. That is alot for a nine year old to shoulder.

I promised I would. I am also going to talk to my friend who is an immigration layer about her case.

His name is Brian and he and his father are white.

Dont think I told the story for your benefit. I am well aware you feel no empathy, not even for children.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We already lost one good patriot in here who was treated like dirt by you.

E
Patriots don't bastardize the Constitution so bronze babies can be excluded from becoming Americans even though they are born here.

Patriots dont lie to demonize people who are immigrants just like their forefathers.

Patriots believe in justice, equal rights and freedom for all people on this land. They dont exclude people because of the color of their skin.

Patriots dont hate, patriots do feel empathy, espically for children.

He, is no patriot!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Evelyn, you also said that Frank left LL because Marisa had invited you back. Not true!

E
That is a lie and I already proved it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It was the part in that same post where Marisa implied that Frank and some others in here were nativists and racists. It had nothing to do with Evelyn at that point. Frank left because of Marisa's remarks. He wasn't going to tolerate that from the blog owner also.

E
Did someone tell you if you repeated a lie over and over it would come true?

Well, it wont!

Thank you Marisa for inviting me back. It can get frustrating at times.

Laura, gracias por el voto de confianza. I admire you for being soft spoken but at the same time hammering your point across.

Thank You Brian, dont be afraid. Your mom is going to be fine. Study hard, mind your parents and play. That, is all you need to worry about.

To all the others who have confidence in me Thank You. I never thought my posts meant anything.

I have read many of the posts in this blog under the various topics. I see there is a wide range of differences of opinion on illegal immigration and the enforcement of our immigration laws. I may not stick around to post much because of the cries of racism I see that are unwarranted.

I have read the exchanges between members Evelyn and Frank and quite honestly I have not read anywhere where Frank had said that he doesn't consider children born from undocumented parents as citizens. He and others in here certainly haven't singled out "bronze" babies at all in regards to the citizenship clause. I haven't seen anyone in this blog exclude anyone because of the color of their skin either. What is this "exclusion" anyway? It seems dishonest to accuse others of things they haven't said or to call verifiable statisitics, lies and racism.

The definition of a patriot is someone who loves this country and abides by its laws. If you fit that description then you are patriot. If you do not, then you are not. From reading all of these topics, it appears that Frank was the patriot and Evelyn is not. There are some other patriots in here and some who are not. Our immigration laws are what they are and we need to abide by them until or if they are changed.

Evelyn:
Dont think I told the story for your benefit. I am well aware you feel no empathy, not even for children."

How dare you make such a vile comment to someone you do not even know. You are well aware I have no empathy, not even for children??? How DARE you Evelyn. Keep your childish, vicious slanderous lies to yourself. I am a very empathic person and deeply resent your stating I am NOT, as if it is some kind of fact. I am thankful you have been reined in on your ridiculous overuse of the "racist" word, but you need to rein YOURSELF in on your comments meant to abuse and degrade other commenters. That is a childish tactic Evelyn.

Sandra said:
I have read many of the posts in this blog under the various topics. I see there is a wide range of differences of opinion on illegal immigration and the enforcement of our immigration laws. I may not stick around to post much because of the cries of racism I see that are unwarranted.

E
Well of course you're not going to stick around because you already know that you wont get away with discriminatory behavior.

It will be debunked. exposed and put on display in all it's putrid glory for all the world to see.

You seem to be under the impression that I am the only one that is aware of the racist behavior that some people on this blog support and apply. Many people here have called Him the same word I did and even Marisa admitted his behavior was, well here are her exact words.

Posted on 26 de Agosto 2008 09:25

Marisa Treviño :
OK, Frank and Evelyn. I've sat by and watched your interaction and while I do feel Evelyn may overuse the term "racist," I don't think she's wrong in its definition. Does that mean I think you're a racist Frank? Partly yes, if we are to go by the definition.
.............
Can all of us be wrong and only those who hate Hispanics right? I dont think so.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I have read the exchanges between members Evelyn and Frank and quite honestly I have not read anywhere where Frank had said that he doesn't consider children born from undocumented parents as citizens. He and others in here certainly haven't singled out "bronze" babies at all in regards to the citizenship clause. I haven't seen anyone in this blog exclude anyone because of the color of their skin either. What is this "exclusion" anyway? It seems dishonest to accuse others of things they haven't said or to call verifiable statisitics, lies and racism.

E
Well then you must be blind!

Show me one post where they referred to the wide open Northern Border. You cant. It doesn't exist!

Show me one post where they have referred to the ill-eagle Canadians or anchor babies of the Irish or German Or Asian Or any other race. None, Nada, Zilch. They dont exist either!

No, it is always the southern border they talk about and the Mexicans, Latinos or Hispanics that they try to exclude from having American babies, from working, renting, using medical facilities, going to school, buying a home, banking, getting a drivers licence, owning a vehicle, or becoming citizens.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

The definition of a patriot is someone who loves this country and abides by its laws. If you fit that description then you are patriot. If you do not, then you are not. From reading all of these topics, it appears that Frank was the patriot and Evelyn is not. There are some other patriots in here and some who are not. Our immigration laws are what they are and we need to abide by them until or if they are changed.

E
Patriots dont pick and choose laws to abide by. If we should abide by all laws then why aren't any of those pesudo-patriots outraged when ICE breaks the law by their blatant disrespect for the rights of all people within the borders of the U.S.

Proof of this is the fact that ACLU, MALDEF, ADL are collecting millions dollars for immigrants whose rights have been violated by ICE.

ICE ignore and violate immigrants rights and pesudo-patriots applaud.

An idiot sheriff in AZ. violates the laws that protect immigrants and pesudo-patriots applaud.

These pesudo-patriots even break the law themselves, but because law enforcement in the area where they are hunting immigrants share the same discriminatory behavior, they are not prosecuted.

The terrorist KKK aka minutemen (had to change name for obvious reasons)
are guilty of illegal imprisonment. They break the law.

This is the exact language of this law they violate
"restraint without consent through intimidation or deception." And that's where the minutemen vigilantes most often violate the law — with intimidation and deception.

Pesudo-patriots who uphold, defend and want others to follow the law described in the following paragraph tell alot about their character and fact they may be alot of things, Patriots sure isnt one of them.

LIKE ALICE following the white rabbit, thousands of immigrants to the U.S. are trapped in the confusing and all-powerful legal net of recently enacted harsh laws, added to the already confusing laws in need of reform.

These Federal statutes do not comport with due process standards or the fundamental fairness inherent in the American justice system that protect people within the United States Of America. Clearly, there is a double standard for immigrants.

Anyone who has to flaunt their patriotism by posting using a patriotic name in a forum or blog run by a hate group and disrespect the American flag by using clothing fabricated from it and go out dressed in this clothing to stand on street corners to bastardize the American flag by waving it while harassing hard working people who are the same as their forefathers are sick, and those are not patriots they are media queens.

Patriots are those fighting to uphold the constution and the rights granted (justice, equality,freedom) to all Americans in the U.S.A.

The True Meaning of Patriotism
By Lawrence W. Reed

Patriotism these days is like Christmas—lots of people caught up in a festive atmosphere replete with lights and spectacles. We hear reminders about “the true meaning” of Christmas—and we may even mutter a few guilt-ridden words to that effect ourselves—but each of us spends more time and thought in parties, gift-giving, and the other paraphernalia of a secularized holiday than we do deepening our devotion to the true meaning.

So it is with patriotism, especially on Memorial Day in May, Flag Day in June, and Independence Day in July. Walk down Main Street America and ask one citizen after another what patriotism means and with few exceptions, you’ll get a passel of the most self-righteous but superficial and often dead-wrong answers. America’s Founders, the men and women who gave us reason to be patriotic in the first place, would think we’ve lost our way if they could see us now.

Since the infamous attacks of September 11, 2001, Americans in near unanimity have been “feeling” patriotic. For most, that sadly suffices to make one a solid patriot. But if I’m right, it’s time for Americans to take a refresher course.

Patriotism is not love of country, if by “country” you mean scenery—amber waves of grain, purple mountain majesty, and the like. Almost every country has pretty collections of rocks, water, and stuff that people grow and eat. If that’s what patriotism is all about, then Americans have precious little for which we can claim any special or unique love. And surely, patriotism cannot mean giving one’s life for a river or a mountain range.

Patriotism is not blind trust in anything our leaders tell us or do. That just replaces some lofty concepts with mindless goose-stepping.

Patriotism is not simply showing up to vote. You need to know a lot more about what motivates a voter before you judge his patriotism. He might be casting a ballot because he just wants something at someone else’s expense. Maybe he doesn’t much care where the politician he’s hiring gets it. Remember Dr. Johnson’s wisdom: “Patriot-ism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”

Waving the flag can be an outward sign of patriotism, but let’s not cheapen the term by ever suggesting that it’s anything more than a sign. And while it’s always fitting to mourn those who lost their lives simply because they resided on American soil, that too does not define patriotism.

People in every country and in all times have expressed feelings of something we flippantly call “patriotism,” but that just begs the question. What is this thing, anyway? Can it be so cheap and meaningless that a few gestures and feelings make you patriotic?

Not in my book.

I subscribe to a patriotism rooted in ideas that in turn gave birth to a country, but it’s the ideas that I think of when I’m feeling patriotic. I’m a patriotic American because I revere the ideas that motivated the Founders and compelled them, in many instances, to put their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor on the line.

What ideas? Read the Declaration of Independence again. Or, if you’re like most Americans these days, read it for the very first time. It’s all there. All men are created equal. They are endowed not by government but by their Creator with certain unalienable rights. Premier among those rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Government must be limited to protecting the peace and preserving our liberties, and doing so through the consent of the governed. It’s the right of a free people to rid themselves of a government that becomes destructive of those ends, as our Founders did in a supreme act of courage and defiance more than two hundred years ago.

Call it freedom. Call it liberty. Call it whatever you want, but it’s the bedrock on which this nation was founded and from which we stray at our peril. It’s what has defined us as Americans. It’s what almost everyone who has ever lived on this planet has yearned for. It makes life worth living, which means it’s worth fighting and dying for.

I hear it from some of the nicest people one would ever meet. Some dear friends of mine, whom I respect very much, say that all illegal immigrants are criminals because they broke the laws that control who may come into this country. And since these immigrants are criminals, we don’t want that kind of person here.

Such accusations confuse what is legal with what is moral. American history is filled with people who broke unjust laws and were morally justified in doing so.

The American Revolution was fought by men and women who broke the laws of England and of King George III. Had they been arrested, they would have been hanged for treason to the Crown. If breaking the law makes one a criminal, then the Founding Fathers were all criminals. But no one believes that today.

Michaela said:
How dare you make such a vile comment to someone you do not even know. You are well aware I have no empathy, not even for children??? How DARE you Evelyn.

E
This is how I DARE, BY OBSERVING every time you defend others who show no empathy.

Posted on 28 de Julio 2008 02:56

Michaela :
Franks said, "Care to explain how people like you are granting the rest of America freedom of speech? It is guaranteed by our Constitution. Did you write it?"
I don't quite understand Evelyn's hostility. As you say Frank, our freedom of speech is guaranteed by our Constitution. I almost get the feeling Evelyn thinks SHE is doing us some great favor by ALLOWING us to exercise our first amendment right to freedom of speech. I notice you have been accused of being hostile here, but frankly, the depth of the hatred Evelyn seems to have for Americans (just white Americans?) is very distressing to me.

Posted on 28 de Julio 2008 15:43

Frank :
Michaela, glad you can see what is really going on in here. I don't post negative articles or lies about legal or illegal Hispanics even though I am falsely accused of it by her. The Congressional Budget Office (a government source) has already stated that illegal immigration is a negative to our country. I am called a racist anyway even though I mostly only argue from the rule of law point of view. She hates all whites that don't agree with her views and can't debate civilly. All she has is the race card and her vile insults. If I were Marisa I would throw her off this blog for those kinds of tactics. It doesn't make her blog look good.

I DARE BY WATCHING YOU DEFEND THIS DESPICABLE BEHAVIOR

Posted on 16 de Junio 2008 00:21

Frank :
Seeking change to the 14th Amendment clause about birthright citizenship born from parents of illegal aliens though is not unpatriotic and is a whole different ball of wax than a child of ANY race being born from parents who are citizens of this country.

AND THIS ONE!

name of thread
Why do we watch and say nothing while ICE traumatizes the children of the undocumented?

Frank :
All the bleeding heart stories in the world doesn't change the fact it is the parents who did this to their children.
These children will learn from this experience that breaking laws is not acceptable and teach them a lesson in morality and respect, not the other way around.

The child he is talking about is about 2 or3 years old.
Sad really sad!

ANOTHER ONE!

name of thread
Dept. of Homeland Security has deported over 90,000 children under the age of 17 to Mexico without a parent or caregiver

Posted on 24 de Agosto 2008 08:09

Frank
It may not matter what I or others think about the 14th Amendment, IT CAN BE RE-INTERPRETED THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE BY THE SUPREME COURT!
~~~~~~

Just like all of you showed no Empathy for these children, and even defend those whose behavior is the coldest, now try to defend yourself. You cant, because defending the type indifference shown to the children's plight is dispicable.

This type behavior shows even worse on a woman then a man. We are suppose to nurture by nature. You should have called attention to him instead of defending him.

“Empathy is an essential component of human social life.
Much of the racism in America today manifests itself in a lack of empathy.

http://www.rachelstavern.com/?p=28
~~~~~~~~

I am thankful you have been reined in on your ridiculous overuse of the "racist" word, but you need to rein

E
LOL! The only one reined in here is you!

It was by choice I stopped using the word racist. I did it because I know the meaning of respect.

It was taught to me when I was a child. It might do you good to learn it. If you can.

Respect for other human beings is a good place to start!

I do not discriminate against anyone based on their skin color, race or ethnic background. That would make me a racist and I am not one. Just because someone calls another a racist, doesn't necessarily make it so if they are making up their own definition of a racist rather than the accepted one. Illegal immigration isn't about citizens, it is about foreigners who haven't honored our immigration laws and are here illegally in our country.

I have read remarks by many patriots who want both of our borders secured but the focus is on our southern border because that is where the majority are coming from, not because of what race they are. It just so happens that it is Mexicans and other Latinos who live south of that border. It could just as easily be the Chinese if China were south of our border and they were the ones entering our country illegally.

If any "immigrants" rights have been violated within the concepts of our Constitution then I am all for them getting their just dues. If there is any corruption or non-compliance with policy in the enforcement of any of our laws by any law enforcement personnel, then I am all for them being held accountable also.

I disagree that the Minutemen are the equivalant of the KKK. I have found no evidence of that but everyone is entitled to their opinion. There are bad apples in every barrel but I wouldn't throw out the entire barrel of apples based on that. If they are breaking any laws, then why haven't they "all" been arrested?

I do believe in justice, equality and freedom for all Americans. I also believe that all Americans and foreigners should abide by our laws and should be equally punished for not doing so. That is part of what is called equality.

I think some of our laws do need changing. Some agree some disagree as to which ones need changing and how but I would never insult another American for not viewing things the way that I do or calling them names for those views.

On birthright citizenship, I never read where Frank or anyone else in here was suggesting that those children born from parents here illegally should be stripped of their citizenship. So that is a lie right there. There have been bills introduced in congress to make it mandatory for one parent to be a citizen or legal resident in order for their child born on our soil to become instantly a citizen. There are no bills in congress pending that would strip those who already have been granted birth citizenship, of that citizenship. If the bill were to pass it would only apply to any babies born after that point. Most Americans that I know of are not for stripping anyone of their citizenship who already have it and I haven't read anyone in this blog say that either. What is the big deal if they become citizens of their parent's country instead? Most countries have that policy and it makes sense for us to adopt that policy also.

Certainly if some groups want to change our immigration laws, other groups should have the right to seek changes in other laws to, such as birthright citizenship. It doesn't mean we have to agree with each other but we should respect each other's opinions without going on the attack.

Sandra :
I do not discriminate against anyone based on their skin color, race or ethnic background. That would make me a racist and I am not one. Just because someone calls another a racist, doesn't necessarily make it so if they are making up their own definition of a racist rather than the accepted one. Illegal immigration isn't about citizens, it is about foreigners who haven't honored our immigration laws and are here illegally in our country.

I have read remarks by many patriots who want both of our borders secured but the focus is on our southern border because that is where the majority are coming from, not because of what race they are. It just so happens that it is Mexicans and other Latinos who live south of that border. It could just as easily be the Chinese if China were south of our border and they were the ones entering our country illegally.

E
When you defend discriminatory behavior, or defend those who display discriminatory behavior it is not an indication of being without culpibility of racism.

● Myth No. 1: "We are only against illegal immigration. Undocumented immigrants should get in line for visas." That's deceptive because you can't demand that people get into line when, for the most part, there is no line to get into.
While the U.S. labor market is demanding 1.5 million mostly low-skilled immigrants a year — and will demand many more in coming years, as the U.S. population becomes increasingly educated — the current immigration system allows into the U.S. an average of 1 million legal immigrants a year, and most of them are already here.
"There is a huge mismatch between what the U.S. labor market needs and the supply of immigration visas," says Frank Sharry, head of the National Immigration Forum, which advocates both secure borders and a path to legal residence for many of the 12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States.
On top of that, most anti-immigration groups want to reduce legal immigration. The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), a favorite of radio and cable television Hispanic immigrant-bashing news shows, wants to reduce legal immigration from the current 1 million a year to about 300,000, with a 20-year cooling-off period.
● Myth No. 2: "Anti-immigration advocates are not anti-Hispanic." Maybe many aren't, but when was the last time you heard anti-immigration Republican hopefuls or cable television talk show hosts lashing out against illegal immigrants from Canada?
In addition, the escalating immigration hysteria has created an ugly environment that affects all Hispanics — both legal and undocumented — in many parts of the country, as recent studies by the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center have shown.
"We are seeing more discrimination and harassment," says Michele Waslin, of the Immigration Policy Center. "Anybody who is Hispanic-looking or has a Hispanic last name is being treated as an undocumented immigrant."
● Myth No. 3: "We are a nation of laws, and the law says you have to enter the country legally." Yes, but we are also a nation of immigrants. And, by the way, nearly half of all undocumented immigrants enter the country legally, and overstay their visas.
● Myth No. 4: "Building a border fence will solve the problem." Wrong. As long as the per capita income in the United States is five times greater than that of Mexico, and as long as U.S. labor market demands millions of low-skilled jobs that Americans won't fill, people will jump over the fence, dig tunnels under it or come through Canada.
● Myth No. 5: Those of us who criticize anti-immigration groups are "amnesty" and "open borders" supporters. Baloney. I, for one, support both border protection and an earned path to legalization for millions of undocumented workers who pay taxes and are willing to learn English.
My conclusion: Let's call things by their names, and agree that most opponents of a comprehensive immigration package are anti-immigration.
The only way to solve the current immigration crisis will be to legalize undocumented workers who have paid their dues and to increase economic integration with Mexico and the rest of Latin America in order to reduce poverty and emigration pressures south of the border.
The rest is, for the most part, populist demagoguery.
My opinion

~~~~~~~

I disagree that the Minutemen are the equivalant of the KKK. I have found no evidence of that but everyone is entitled to their opinion. There are bad apples in every barrel but I wouldn't throw out the entire barrel of apples based on that. If they are breaking any laws, then why haven't they "all" been arrested?

E
Here is proof they are. Those holding the Confedrate flag are KKKers AKA Stormfront.

http://www.elmerfudd.us/darkwind/tackle.htm
http://i57.photobucket

.com/albums/g204/automatic_writing/MinutemenandNazis.jpg

Sandra said:
On birthright citizenship, I never read where Frank or anyone else in here was suggesting that those children born from parents here illegally should be stripped of their citizenship.

E
Here are two examples if what you say you have never heard or seen.

Frank :
Seeking change to the 14th Amendment clause about birthright citizenship born from parents of illegal aliens though is not unpatriotic and is a whole different ball of wax than a child of ANY race being born from parents who are citizens of this country.

Posted on 24 de Agosto 2008 08:09
Frank
It may not matter what I or others think about the 14th Amendment, IT CAN BE RE-INTERPRETED

~~~~~
Certainly if some groups want to change our immigration laws, other groups should have the right to seek changes in other laws to, such as birthright citizenship. It doesn't mean we have to agree with each other but we should respect each other's opinions without going on the attack.

E
I respect everyone's opinion in fact I will fight so everyone can have one and have a chance to be heard.

When people stray and lie to demonize immigrants knowingly or not, I also have a right to expose the lies and follow the path of TRUTH.

Some of the people here think if they repeat a lie over and over it will become true. It wont! LOL!

Here is more on birthright.

Anti-Immigrant Republican Brian Bilbray's Bizarre Crusade on the 14th Amendment

By Rhonda Brownstein, Southern Poverty Law Center. Posted September 1, 2008.

THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE BY THE SUPREME COURT!

In almost every session of congress he has been part of since 1995, U.S. Rep. Brian Bilbray (R-Calif.) has unsuccessfully sponsored a law that aims to deny American citizenship to children born in the United States of non-citizen parents. His persistence is not a surprise: Bilbray is a former lobbyist for the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), a right-wing, anti-immigrant group that paid him almost $300,000 to lobby on its behalf between 2002 and 2005, and has headed the hard-line Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus since early last year. The current version of Bilbray's perennially losing legislation is called the Birthright Citizenship Act of 2007.
Still, it seems strange that Rep. Bilbray would sponsor such a bill, given that his own mother was a non-citizen. But Bilbray carved out an exception that would conveniently apply to him -- that a child born in the U.S. is considered a citizen so long as at least one parent is (1) a citizen; (2) a lawful permanent resident; or (3) in active military service. Bilbray's father was a U.S. citizen.
Even if Bilbray could manage to get his bill enacted into law, it would almost certainly be struck down as unconstitutional. The Fourteenth Amendment to the United States Constitution states: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and the State wherein they reside." It would take a constitutional amendment, not a mere act of Congress, to deny citizenship to those born on U.S. soil.
Bilbray claims that his bill is simply advancing an interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment -- as Congress is permitted to do under its power to enact laws to enforce the Constitution -- rather than proposing a change that would require the very difficult and extended process of amending the Constitution. The crux of his tortured argument is that the Fourteenth Amendment clause "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" denies citizenship to American-born children whose parents "owe allegiance to another country." Not surprisingly, Bilbray is not specific about what that phrase means.
But as the nonpartisan Congressional Research Service found: "Although the primary aim of the Fourteenth Amendment was to secure citizenship for African Americans, the debates on the citizenship provisions of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Fourteenth Amendment indicate that they were intended to extend U.S. citizenship to all persons born in the U.S. and subject to its jurisdiction, regardless of race, ethnicity, or alienage of the parents" (emphasis added).

Evelyn:

When you defend discriminatory behavior, or defend those who display discriminatory behavior it is not an indication of being without culpibility of racism."

There are only a certain number of skilled and unskilled immigrants that we can allow in every year based on our labor needs and other criteria that are in the national interest. We have fair quotas from different countries. There is no discrimination based on common sense and the national interests.

Evelyn:

● Myth No. 1: "We are only against illegal immigration. Undocumented immigrants should get in line for visas." That's deceptive because you can't demand that people get into line when, for the most part, there is no line to get into."

If there is no line it is because the line of people that we need have already entered legally. Kind of like when a movie theatre is full. There are no more lines or tickets available. One can't just crash the movie theatre anyway.

Evelyn:

"While the U.S. labor market is demanding 1.5 million mostly low-skilled immigrants a year — and will demand many more in coming years, as the U.S. population becomes increasingly educated — the current immigration system allows into the U.S. an average of 1 million legal immigrants a year, and most of them are already here.
"There is a huge mismatch between what the U.S. labor market needs and the supply of immigration visas," says Frank Sharry, head of the National Immigration Forum, which advocates both secure borders and a path to legal residence for many of the 12 million undocumented immigrants in the United States.
On top of that, most anti-immigration groups want to reduce legal immigration. The Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR), a favorite of radio and cable television Hispanic immigrant-bashing news shows, wants to reduce legal immigration from the current 1 million a year to about 300,000, with a 20-year cooling-off period."

Many believe that there is no actual shortage of low-skilled American citizen labor. Just that there is an ample supply of workers here illegally who work cheaper and willing employers to hire them. There are "expert" statistics available both pro and con on this subject. One person's expert is another person's mere opinion. At any rate, it is still not right for either employer or employee to violate our immigration laws to achieve their goals. That is why we have a congress to enact changes in laws if needed. We can't put the cart before the horse until that happens.

I am aware that some want to reduce legal immigraton also. Ever done any research to see if they have any valid concerns about a potential population growth doubling and in a few short years, even by taking into account the baby boomer generation dying off? It is a concern of many Americans in so many ways.

Evelyn:

● Myth No. 2: "Anti-immigration advocates are not anti-Hispanic." Maybe many aren't, but when was the last time you heard anti-immigration Republican hopefuls or cable television talk show hosts lashing out against illegal immigrants from Canada?
In addition, the escalating immigration hysteria has created an ugly environment that affects all Hispanics — both legal and undocumented — in many parts of the country, as recent studies by the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center have shown.
"We are seeing more discrimination and harassment," says Michele Waslin, of the Immigration Policy Center. "Anybody who is Hispanic-looking or has a Hispanic last name is being treated as an undocumented immigrant."

I personally don't know of any Americans who are anti-immigrant but I do know of many who are anti-illegal immigrant. As I said, in another post illegals from south of our border are mentioned more often because they make up 80% of the 60% who have crossed our border illegally. There is no hidden racist agenda. Those are just statistical facts.

It is unfortunate if Hispanic citizens are under suspicion now. They can thank those south of the border who came here illegally for that. But they have valid I.D.,so that sets them apart from someone with no I.D. or a fake I.D. No one can be harrassed when providing a valid I.D. I have many Hispanic-American neighbors and they don't get harrassed or live in fear. They live normal lives. Those situatons are the exception to the rule, not the norm.

Evelyn:

● Myth No. 3: "We are a nation of laws, and the law says you have to enter the country legally." Yes, but we are also a nation of immigrants. And, by the way, nearly half of all undocumented immigrants enter the country legally, and overstay their visas.

Yes, we have been a nation of immigrants but they are expected to enter our country legally not illegally. Yes, there are 40% who do overstay their visas. They need to be monitored so that they leave when their visas expire or renew them on time.

Evelyn:

● Myth No. 4: "Building a border fence will solve the problem." Wrong. As long as the per capita income in the United States is five times greater than that of Mexico, and as long as U.S. labor market demands millions of low-skilled jobs that Americans won't fill, people will jump over the fence, dig tunnels under it or come through Canada.

The double layered fence along with beefed up Border Patrol and other technological deterrants will work with a high percentage of success. We are not expecting a 100% success rate. I would like to see both borders secured. Terrorist entry is a real threat also.
If employers can prove that we need more foreign labor to fill jobs here, then they need to lobby our government to increase immigration quotas. Circumventing our labor and immigration laws to acquire labor is not acceptable. They can scale back their production if needed until their labor issues are resolved through government channels.

Evelyn:

● Myth No. 5: Those of us who criticize anti-immigration groups are "amnesty" and "open borders" supporters. Baloney. I, for one, support both border protection and an earned path to legalization for millions of undocumented workers who pay taxes and are willing to learn English."

I disagree because our government will just double cross us again as they did in 1986 and not secure our borders. We also need a government study to be done first on how many actual foreign workers we need before any blanket legalization. I am also concerned that this just sends yet another signal for the next batch to cross hoping for yet another amnesty.

Evelyn:

My conclusion: Let's call things by their names, and agree that most opponents of a comprehensive immigration package are anti-immigration.
The only way to solve the current immigration crisis will be to legalize undocumented workers who have paid their dues and to increase economic integration with Mexico and the rest of Latin America in order to reduce poverty and emigration pressures south of the border.
The rest is, for the most part, populist demagoguery.
My opinion

I disagree with your "conclusion" that most opponents of CIR are anti-immigration. This isn't about legal immigrants. There are many reasons that they feel the way they do. Some of them I have posted in here. Most don't have any sinister agenda. There is always more than one way to solve a problem. Many don't agree with your solution. Mexico and other countries who don't value their own citizens enough to provide jobs and a decent lifestyle for them need to start being responsible for them. I would rather we work with Mexico to ensure this happens than for their entire populace to spill into our country by the millions.

Evelyn:

"Here is proof that the MM are the equivalant to the KKK. Those holding the Confedrate flag are KKKers AKA Stormfront."

http://www.elmerfudd.us/darkwind/tackle.htm
http://i57.photobucket

The Minuteman do not associate or approve of the KKK. These radicals show up at rallies just as the Reconquista radicals show up for the other side. It doesn't mean they were invited or are approved of by that side.

Evelyn: (regarding birthright citizenship)
"Here are two examples if what you say you have never heard or seen."

Frank :
Seeking change to the 14th Amendment clause about birthright citizenship born from parents of illegal aliens though is not unpatriotic and is a whole different ball of wax than a child of ANY race being born from parents who are citizens of this country.

Frank:
It may not matter what I or others think about the 14th Amendment, IT CAN BE RE-INTERPRETED

Ok, so where does Frank say that he wants the citizenship stripped from those who already have it? It is only about after a bill passes to mandate one parent be a citizen in order for their newborn to acquire birthright citizenship from that point forward.

Evelyn:

"I respect everyone's opinion....

Well part of that respect is to not attack someone for their opinion, don't you think?

"When people stray and lie to demonize immigrants knowingly or not, I also have a right to expose the lies and follow the path of TRUTH."

Well, I don't think anyone lies or demonizes "immigrants". Everyone has a right to believe what stats they choose to believe about those in our country illegally, don't they? One person's lies can be another's truth and vice versa. There are many different studies that are both pro and con out there. I think we should rely on good goverment sources for the facts. But ultimately it is about our immigration laws as they are written today anyway.

Sandra :
Evelyn:
When you defend discriminatory behavior, or defend those who display discriminatory behavior it is not an indication of being without culpability of racism."

Sandra
There are only a certain number of skilled and unskilled immigrants that we can allow in every year based on our labor needs and other criteria that are in the national interest. We have fair quotas from different countries. There is no discrimination based on common sense and the national interests.

E
Then dont defend ethnocentrists. Cut to the chase and say what you mean.

The immigrants I defend are not in some line waiting to be allowed in .

They are productive integrates of our society who are contributing to our economy , behaving, learning English, and have been here long enough to set down roots.
~~~~~~~~

Evelyn
● Myth No. 1: "We are only against illegal immigration. Undocumented immigrants should get in line for visas." That's deceptive because you can't demand that people get into line when, for the most part, there is no line to get into."

Sandra
If there is no line it is because the line of people that we need have already entered legally. Kind of like when a movie theatre is full. There are no more lines or tickets available. One can't just crash the movie theatre anyway.

E
Then dont suggest they get in line and do it the right way.
~~~~~

Evelyn:
"While the U.S. labor market is demanding 1.5 million mostly low-skilled immigrants a year — and will demand many more in coming years, as the U.S. population becomes increasingly educated — the current immigration system allows into the U.S. an average of 1 million legal immigrants a year, and most of them are already here.
"There is a huge mismatch between what the U.S. labor market needs and the supply of immigration vi